mi tercer ciclo (masa) ,como mejorarlo?

Que tal me presento, Llevo algunos años en esto de los fierros! tengo 38 años, mido 1.71cm.
comence este ciclo pesando 79,900kg mi proposito era aumentar kilos de musculo y al final tratar de quitar algo de grasa acumulada, les comento que voy en la semana 14, jalando 4 veces por semana, en la semana 10 llegue a pesar 85.900kg por lo cual decidi que era tiempo de equilibrarme asi que meti dieta mas sana y mas cardio,con un poco de cardispan “local” y ahorita en la sem 14 ando en 84kg , mejore bastante mi masa muscular.use un poco de t3 a 12mcg ed es una dosis baja no quise arriesgar musculo solo para asimilar mejor. use 5000 u.i en mitad de ciclo y usare otras 5000 ,1 semana antes de salir y 5000 al salir, hare post con nolvadex a razon de 30mg la primer semana y 20mg las dos siguientes. pero me gustaria algunas criticas acerca de este ciclo que es mi 3ero,de antemano muchas gracias

Semana----dbolmg/ed--------------equip------deca----------enan.tes--------trenbo------------winstrol----

1…20…500

2…20…500

3…20… 500

4…20…500

5…20…500

6…500

7…600…500

8…600…500

11…600…500

12…10…600…500

13…10…400…600

14…10…400…600

Disculpa pero las piramides ya murieron hasta donde llega mis conocimientos el diana es d arranke y solo durant las primeras 4 semanas a razon d 25mg-30mg ED el nolva es durant todo el ciclo el post es con clomid durant 3 semanas 100mg-50mg-50mg dlos emas roids a ver ke t dicen los expertos en la materia pero creo ke diarn lo mismo dosis estables no piramidesentre 6-8 semanas d roids y el win es d salida las ultimas 4 semanas.

Saludos. :slight_smile:

Muchas gracias ecko72 por tus comentarios, a mi parecer piramide es cuando elevas las dosis y luego las bajas en este caso las dosis son las mismas por lo cual no me parece piramide, tal vez tengas razòn en que hubiera sido mejor meter 8 semanas seguidas cada sustancia y no 5, lo que pasa es que mi stack no me lo permitio pero trate de llegar a un tiempo considerable para que los roids actuaran. Y si no especifique mi uso con tamoxifeno pero lo hice a razon de 20mg ed desde la semana 3 hasta fin, con respecto al clomid pense en este ciclo solo usar hcg y nolvadex ya que el clomid me causas un estado emocional un poco depresivo y quise evitarlo…y lei algo acerca de usar mejor tamoxifeno y aqui te lo comparto:
alguien mas?

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn

Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world’s foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website – but only after you have finsished reading big Mf’r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

Now, on to the article:

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970’s at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won’t increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers’ clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, “The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin
[sex hormone binding globulin ]
levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment”. In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in sex hormone binding globulin levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month’s follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

References:

  1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

  2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

  3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int

No tome en cuenta lo del dbol como piramide de tu comentario ya que lo use casi como suplemento ya que a mi edad a dosis mas altas de 20mg me da mas problemas que beneficios y de la sem 1-5 lo use descanzando los fines de semana, al termino del ciclo lo meto igual solo 2 semanas a menor dosis solo para intentar retener lo mas posiblle las ganancias

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SI HACES ESE CICLO…Q DIOS SE APIADE DE TI :? !!!

VAYA CHURRO !!! :?
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Lance Armstrong me podrias dar un aporte para poder entender mejor no se porque lo dices, gracias

No entendi. El ciclo que posteaste es el siguiente que vas a hacer o es el que estas haciendo actualmente??

masteruy estoy en la semana 10 del ciclo

por cierto el ciclo es de 12 semanas por ahi se me escapo al postearlo es solo restarle 2 semanas en lugar de semana 14 es 12

asi es

Semana----dbolmg/ed--------------equip------deca----------enan.tes--------trenbo------------winstrol----

1…20…500

2…20…500

3…20… 500

4…20…500

5…20…500

6…500

7…600…500

8…600…500

9…600…500

10…10…600…500

11…10…400…600

12…10…400…600

Ahi tienes a Lance espera a ke t vuelva a postear pero si veo raro lo del dbol solo se usa como arranke 4 semanas y ya dices ke vas en la catorceava semana??? o sea ya casi terminas como t sientes…?ese ciclo se parece al ke esta en la pagina d ciclos y ya estan desfasados no los han corregido.

Ya ke termines checat con examenes medicos y ya veremos pero cualkiera d aki t dira lo mismo pero como dices ya estas x terminar asi ke continua y para la otra mejor postea antes.

Saludos

sale ecko72 se te agradece. :smiley:

Vas a queretaro o se lo hecho al perro?


Doce Semanas?

Bastante Gonakor antes de que salgas por que los huevitos van a estar bien chiquitos. Y por lo menos 6 semas de PCT con Clomid y Nolva + Tribulus Terrestris. El clomid si no te cae bien pues tan siquiera una sema alcavo que tanto es tantito y ya lo demas con nolva y Trib.
Saludos a los del Barrio paisa!

hecho m8o8r8e8n8a8z8o se te agradece tu aportacion, oye en si para que usas el tribulus? yo aqui te saludo al pueblo

ecko72
cheque tu ciclo que posteaste como vas? se ve bueno algo cargado como el mio no?

Amigo serpiente5,

En el post original decias que ibas por la semana 14. Que según la tabla era la última semana. Luego dices que hubo un error en la tabla (efectivamente, los números están mal y daba doce) y que vas por la 10.

En el primer caso ya estarías por la última semana. Luego de corregir dices ir por la semana 10. ¿CREES QUE TIENE ALGÚN SENTIDO QUE OPINEMOS SOBRE UN CICLO QUE YA HAS USADO?. La verdad que cuatro semanas de deca no le veo sentido, quizá otros si le vean. Luego dos semanas de cualquier roid tampoco le veo sentido. ¿Tantas semanas de Dianabol oral? Lo veo peligroso.

Yo creo que no esta bien estructurado. Pero eso ahora, no sirve de absolutamente nada.

LO QUE SI CREO QUE SE DEBE HACER ES ESTRUCTURAR UN POST CICLO “CON TODOS LOS HIERROS”, porque a tu edad ES SUPER IMPORTANTE UN BUEN POSTCICLO.

Saludos,

FLFH

P.D.: me hizo mucha gracia el comentario de m8o8r8e8n8a8z8o… jajajajaja

El tribulus terrestris es un suplemento natural que contiene Saponinas y Protodiocinas , las cuales actuan sobre el eje hipotalamo pituitario para aumentar la FLH , y la FLH estimula los testiculos para producir Testo.
Semejante al gonakor pero mas leve y natural.

FLFH te agradezco tu comentario bueno en verdad fue un error mio al postear me avione quitando puntitos y editando jeje
pero en realidad son las 12 semanas y estoy en la 10

yo se que no esta excelentemente bien estructurado pero dado al stack que pude conseguir trate de amoldarlo lo mejor que pude, me gustaria que me dieras nuevamente una opinion a esto: yo pense que al usar dbol de arranca las primeras 5 semanas descanzando los fines de semana y a una dosis de 20mg, usando un poco de similarina, no estresaria tanto mi higado para poder meterlo las ultimas dos semanas otra vez para salir y tratar perder lo menos posible, no se que opiniones haya del uso del dbol al final del ciclo?? pero si tu opinas eso tendre cuidado!

por otro lado dices que no le ves sentido al uso de roids dos semanas en este caso a la trembo y al winstrol, pero yo crei que despuès del ultimo pincho de testo que duraria en mi sistema 15 dìas era bueno meter esos dias algunos roids de corte en lugar de solo esperar el pct …sera?

El Post lo manejare bien con 5000 U.I de hcg, de paso te digo que meti otras 5000 a mitad de ciclo, u usare tamoxifeno, pero se te agradece tu aporte porque a mi edad es mas importante el pct?

por otro lado mi proximo ciclo tratare de postearlo antes para hacer los cambios necesarios.

muchas gracias.

paisano gracias

m8o8r8e8n8a8z8o
muy buen aporte me has dado lo tendre en cuenta para cuando vaya a buscar suplementos! saludos desde QRO a donde quiera que andes paisa! :smiley:

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AHI TIENES TU PORQUE ,BRO:

DIANABOL: 8 SEMANAS Y EN PIRAMIDE ¡¡ UNA LOCURA :shock: !!
DECA Y TESTO: 4 SEMANAS…ESO ES POCO Y ENCIMA CANTIDADES DESORBITADAS :?
EQUIPOISE: 6 SEMANAS A 500 NO ENTIENDO¿ :roll: ?
TREMBO: 2 SEMANAS SOLO ??? :shock:
WIN: 2 SEMANAS ??? Y A 600??? :shock:


Y AHORA VIENE EL REMATE: NO HACES POST-CICLO Y ENCIMA NO USAS PROTECTORES.

SUERTE HERMANO…TE VA HACER FALTA,PERO Q MUCHA FALTA PARA Q TU SALUD NO QUEDE TOCADA.

NO ENTIENDO PORQUE NO POSTEASTE ANTES DE EMPEZAR HACER EL CICLO ESTE.NO LO ENTIENDO DE VERDAD :?
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